"Man, I told you he was good."

[fan_elune]

This whole post is majorly SPOILERIFIC in a Doctor Who finale, Doomsday kind of way.

Typed as I watched.

...yes, they're Daleks. So what?

Not the best acting, Jackie.

Cybermen will remove sexuality! No way Jose!

Oh, don't go and die, purple shirt and tie guy. You're into purple! Thus, I like you. ...yeeouch.

Oh, Rose clinging to Mickey! Heh.

Music's good. Probably a bit over the top, but good.

I like Mickey, he's a nice middle ground between old!Mickey and Ricky.

Oh, Doctor. To know what's going through his mind as he sees the Daleks.

Ha! Of course the Daleks would not unite with you, Cyberfilth.

"You are better at dying"? Ha! The Daleks have snark.

Aha! Of course they're scared! The oncoming storm!

So, y'all think they'll get upgraded? TW-gal and Jackie?

Hope! That's Jacky-boy, intit? YAY! Now go find Mickey! Jake/Mickey OTP! Ahem.

Yay for Jackie running, too. Anybody would be running.

Oh Jake's accent! (You'd missed me squeeing at his accent, hadn't you. Admit it.)

Oh, Pete... Pete! What's up. You can't - he's needed!

Harriet! Heee! Love that mention of her.

Ha! I love him. "Off we go, then!" So him.

ROSE DON'T. ...so she remembers? She knows that Jack's alive. Why the fuck did they not go back for him. Serious-the-fuck-ly. No excuse. ...and she's on crack again!

SONIC SCREWDRIVER WOOHOO! Opening doors and putting up shelves.

Go Mickey! Come on, Mickey, come on! ...oh, brilliant, he stumbled.

Ha! Doctor/Mickey smooch!

...and the way Mickey's looking at the Doctor. Aw. He's like, "yes, that's the one."

Yay Pete and Jackie!

Love that he repeatedly stumbled and fell. Heroes never fall. But the Doctor does. Yay!

Thank you Jake. Because yes, lift, good idea. At least one of them has something resembling brains.

A prison, fuck, and also, good one. The fact that it's a prison, I mean.

"Man, I told you he was good." = OTP moment. (And can totally be read as slashy, too. Just sayin'.)

...how exactly did TW-gal manage to regain her individuality inside the Cybersuit? What? How did that happen? Did I miss something?

"Emergency temporal shift"? Did one escape? Is it the Black one?

If she's going into the void, they're so going to get her back at some point. It's Sirius behind the veil all over again. Oh? Oh. Pete. *cuddles* *hard* How did he pull that off? Seriously, that's so deus ex machina. Russell Russell Russell.

Oh, Ten. ...and now you need to move on. No, seriously. Maybe Jack can arrive? One can always hope.

I'm bored.

...is she in therapy? Who is she talking to?

WHERE IS JACKY-BOY. Did they break up on account of Rose?

"Burning up a sun just to say goodbye." That's lovely.

Bad Wolf Bay. Ha! And "Dalek?" was exactly my thought.

THE BABY? ...oh. Good. I was worried for a moment that she was back with Mickey. She can't be, since he's with Jake. Just sayin'.

It's good acting, Billie, but... I just can't care.

GOOD. I was hoping it'd power down before he could say it. OH DOCTOR. The Doctor crying is just wrong. In such a beautiful way.

And the music is really, seriously too much.

Ha! I like the WTF ending. EXCEPT FOR THE PART WHERE IT'S SERIOUSLY MISSING IN THE JACK DEPARTMENT.


And now for actual thoughts.

That was highly disappointing. First off, where is the breakdown? Second off, where is Jack? Third off, where are the tears I'm guessing Russell was hoping to get out of me? Fourth off, where's more on the Time War? Fifth off, where's the finale-worthy plot?

1) Seriously. They spent the whole season building this up? Where is the Doctor breaking down. Where is their arrogance getting them into trouble. Where is the big mistake he or she should seriously have made by now. It's like hubris building up into nothing, and that's bad. I've defended Russell against so many accusations characterisation-wise, because I thought it was all for a greater purpose.

2) Okay, so I was sort of resigned to not seeing Jack, but I couldn't help hoping, right? But this goes back to the same issue as before, me expecting them to be building up to something big. Because if I wanted to see Jack all that much - well, yes, okay, it was partly to squee and marvel and love. But also? Because if anybody could put the Doctor back in his place it would be Jack. It clicks so perfectly in my head, the way it could go down. But there was no need for Jack, since there was no need to put the Doctor back in his place.

3) Not a single tear shone in my eyes. I like that they didn't actually kill Rose, that she was just being super emo. And at the same time, I hate that they didn't actually kill Rose. I like that they didn't, because everybody knew they would. But a well-done, played-down death would've been so perfect, and would've surely made the Doctor break down, and yes it all comes back to that, we need a breakdown. Maybe they're just taking their time, and are planning for it later, but... god. This was so disappointing. The goodbye scene was brilliantly acted, and maybe it's because I cried every tear in my body last night over Grey's, I don't know, but this just seriously fell short. Because their arrogance and their on-crack-ness have left me on the outside of all their private jokes, on the outside of their relationship, and I could not care. (I miss Nine. The "Bad Wolf" moment? LOVE. It was like a little bit of Nine shining through Ten's smile.)

4) You give me Daleks, I can't help but hope for more info on the Time War. They've kept us in the dark for so long, and Ten's "and maybe one day I'll come to terms with it," or however he put it, only served to finally put in words what we already knew. That he's haunted by it, and that he's far from got over it, and the thought that a Time Lord, looking to live a whiiiile longer yet, would say "maybe" about getting over something, when he potentially has so much time to do it in? Well, yeah. It means the world. But we knew all that already, the acting was good enough. ...yes, we're back to me wanting the breakdown. Hmpf. Because the breakdown, had it happened, would've had to be related to his repressed feelings over the Time War.

5) Honestly. I can't defend Russell honestly without being aware of his flaws, and plot has never been his strong point. He also likes his epic endings, and the whole "whole family on this deserted beach in Norway, the Tylers reunited" thing? Very RTD. (For the record, though? I hate that Mickey's suddenly back to Rose's... guy friend thing. Liked them so much better a world apart.) My point! My point is that the plot SUCKED MAJOR ASS. I was not holding my breath in the slightest. How sad is that? Last week's cliffhanger had me on the edge of my seat, and this? Not so much. I kept waiting for the story to really start, really kick in, and suddenly it was already Cheap Resolution Time. I truly wish they made longer stories, could develop things more. Or had Steven Moffat write all their two-parters. Honestly, last year's ending two-parter was so much better, even though it used even worse of a deus ex machina than Pete was. At least the deus ex machina was so huge it almost mocked itself, with Rose as an actual goddess figure, momentarily.

I'm just... disappointed. Sorry. And sixth off, I think, is where is Nine?

6) I miss Nine. I love David Tennant, I always said he could pull off a brilliant Doctor, and he does, but he doesn't pull off a Doctor I can LOVE. Not really. I love him superficially. I don't love him like I should, and it fills me with sadness. Nine, I miss Nine so much, no matter how much I try to like Ten.

Can we get Torchwood now?

Comments

[cerulean-blu.livejournal.com]

Well I'll just keep on crying, blubbering fool that I am, but don't mind me, no no. Can I cling a little?

Can't say I agree with most of it, but then I'm easy, and cheesy, and other things in -y, so to each his own I guess *g*. The shipper's having some serious emo-ing here shhhhhh.

Ah, but I do agree on the Captain Jack goodness, or lack thereof. Meh.

[fan-elune.livejournal.com]

Do cling, darling. I can't say most of the flist agrees with me. They were all in tears, too. I'm feeling very alone. Between that and not giving a damn about the football game, I'm not only feeling isolated from my fellow Frenchmen, but also from my fellow Who-ites.

Jaaaaack! Ahem.

[cerulean-blu.livejournal.com]

Awww... well don't worry, I don't give rat's ass over football either. I mean, I've had people at work greeting me with "congratulations!" every other day, and I'm like "errr, I'm assuming it's about football? Did we play? Should I give a flying fuck about that when the end is nigh on the Who front?" Just like Captain Jack would say, cue icon.

Second round of DW in 2 hours and I'm wondering if I should put myself through that again. I mean, I was iconing until 3:30am last night and listening to Muse's Absolution. How bad is that? *sigh* ^_^'

[fan-elune.livejournal.com]

Heee! *tacklecuddles Jack* Yes, completely.

It could be worse. How long did you sob? Grey's had me sobbing for, I don't know, half an hour nonstop after the end, before I gave up and went and curled up in bed with ice cream and chocolate. That said, I know that for me, second viewings are never as hard.

[cerulean-blu.livejournal.com]

ok, that's bad! ;-)

Actually, the worst bit (apart from the crying at the end and then a bit last night as well) was how I did not realise I'g gotten so worked about the episode. Although the constant finger-drummin' on saturday should have given me a clue. So that when Pete appeared to save Rose at the last second (No, I did not see it coming, repeat after me, I'm E-A-S-Y), I had that kinda giggle-sob/hyperventilate reaction for a minute. I think that was a Oh-thank-RTD-they-didn't-kill-her shortly followed by a OMG-but-she's-gonna-get-stranded-on-the-other-side, and I couldn't quite decide which one was more important. But the point is, I can't remember the last time I had this kind of reaction to a TV show, hell, to "real life" actually, so it was a bit WTF is wrong with you girl.
Tell you what though, people can say what they like about RTD, anybody who can move me like that (and I'm a cold-hearted b**ch) can have my chocolate.
*g*

[randomling]

This is the first episode where I actually, genuinely, came away not knowing what to think. I mean, I'd long ago given up on there being a breakdown really, or any follow-up to the hubris - maybe because it seems like what I sometimes think is "hubris" is actually just the Doctor and his chronic ego problem rubbing off on Rose. I mean, this is a man who will break his best friend's heart to save her life (not Rose, Ace), who'll spend a half a lifetime conniving how to destroy a planet, who will bring down kings and queens without a thought and be back to the TARDIS in time for tea. And that's not hubris - it's never been sold as such, not really - it's just the Doctor.

But I hadn't given up on a good exit for Rose, and I think she got a horrible one. Not because it wasn't a good episode, but because it completely trashed her character development. She learned nothing and only came away from the Doctor worse off, which is exactly how it shouldn't be. It should have been a choice - a hard one, but a choice - between the Doctor and her family, and her family should have won. Not screaming to stay with the Doctor until the last second she was ripped away, and then seeming very much like she might never get over him. Or he should have left her, or forced her to leave; but it should have been one of them, and it should have left her hurting, maybe, but wiser, and able to move on at some point. All I got from the end of this was pure despair and horror, with no hope at all. Which is, frankly, horrible.

And it leaves me with the opposite impression from The Parting Of The Ways. That episode was all about the healing power of love and how the Doctor is a positive force on almost everything around him, he's a reason to put up with the death. But this episode was about the destructive power of love. And the Doctor, as the ultimate in love, being the ultimate destructive force - because without him, there's no point and you're empty.

God, how depressing a message is that?

[cerulean-blu.livejournal.com]

Aaaand buttin' in! Fan' is used to it, but I apologize. I apologize also because I'm not good with words, don't use them much myself ;-)

I just wanted to say that I don't see it as negatively as that. And it seems to me that Rose did make a choice, twice in actual fact. Firstly when she choose to 'transport' back to the Doctor and secondly when she choose to risk her life to get that lever upbright again. To me, she choose that life with the Doctor and saving the world, and slaying the dragons. I'm not arguing that perhaps her motivation is off (staying with the man she loves/being ready to die to save his life rather than the learning/wisdom/carrying on the fight for good and puppies etc...). But then that seems rather human to me, and if that means she learnt nothing, then perhaps she's not the only one. I'm not too sure either why choosing to be with her newly reunited family should be the right choice over staying with the Doctor (even though we know that it's the curse of the Doctor to always end up alone, and she can't stay, and you wouldn't have it any other way, but that's beside the point). But then again I'm not a family person.
As for the destructiveness of that love, well, I think if somebody I loved that much was ripped away from me, I'd probably go down kicking and screaming. Doesn't mean all hope is gone and you will never get over it eventually. I think Rose talking about joining Torchwood and still fighting the good fight stresses that she's actually considering the future. That doesn't pevent the'now' from hurting.
I think we'll never know whether Rose would have left one day, and decided to go back to that *other* life. It was not her time to go, but she had to, that's the nature of the show.

But then again, I love Rose, love the ship and I'm an optimist (if only with regards to my TV shows lol), and I found the episode heartbreaking but not depressing. The whole 'love and lost' thing rather than the 'having not loved at all'

Erm, OK, I think that's my longest post *ever*. lol. I hope it didn't come out as flames, cos that wasn't the point at all and everyone's entitled to their opinion. But like I said, not good with words, me. Ok, ok, I'm leaving now *g*

[fan-elune.livejournal.com]

Hey! I am getting used to it, and strongly encourage it in fact. (And it didn't sound like flames to me!)

It's not just about family, though. Family's just what chessy!Russell uses to symbolise her life. A life on earth (no matter what earth), a life lived as a human, not as a time traveller. A real life. And that's how, to me, the choice of staying with the Doctor, while being very understandable, and very human, is also very childlike. But we've seen her spend a whole season unlearning everything Nine might've taught her, so I'm absolutely not surprised that she made that choice. Ten has made her into the person that would make that choice.

Anyway, that's my own two cents on the choice. Can we get Jack already?

[cerulean-blu.livejournal.com]

Hum, I see your point. And it's probably just me projecting actually ;-) (me, grow up? wasat?). Childlike perhaps. I can't help but think that choosing between an everyday-work-home-sleep "real life" and the chance to see everything and do a lot of good in the process (time-travelling sexiness notwithstanding), well, there's no contest really. But maybe that's just me not being overtly fond of "real life" in the first place either.

As for hubris, I don't quite see it, but then I'm not really Old Skool either. I mean, yes, the Doctor tends to show off, prancing around and the lot, and he does rubs everyones' face in it all the time occasionally. But at the end of the day, he *is* the higher authority, and the choices I've seen him made were for the greater good. Maybe he does know what's best, if he can see all just don't go lord over everybody, Ten! You know you're right, I know you're right, let's leave it at that
Having said that, there's been a couple of times when he almost put Rose above the universe, so maybe not. Did you notice in Doomsday when he tells Pete about Jackie being alive in the parallel universe and how he didn't have to be alone? How Pete turned around and said there where more important things at stake? Maybe I'm reading too much into, but I swear there was a beat there where Ten was like "is there?". I like the Doctor because he's a flawed hero, too, and that's the best kind.

Wow, here I went again. Can you tell I *cannot* concentrate at work today? *g*

[fan-elune.livejournal.com]

But the thing is - I don't feel like it was a question of "having a life" vs. "helping the world out." I feel like it was family vs. the Doctor. And that's what makes me go, childlike. Because throughout this season, it didn't feel like Rose's main priority, or the Doctor's, was doing good. It felt like it was having fun. I blame the on-crackness. Tooth & Claw has traumatised me, yes.

But he isn't, the higher authority. Nobody can be, and like you say, he's flawed. There is no higher authority. That is hubris, as far as I'm concerned, and as a Whedonite I want to see his flaws get back to bite him in the lovely arse. I mean, seriously. If he doesn't learn, how can I love him? He needs to evolve. He hasn't, for a whole season, has he? I'm pining for that. That's why I want a breakdown! *pines*

[cerulean-blu.livejournal.com]

bite him in the lovely arse
OK, firstly, that sentence completely derailed my train of thoughts. *g*

I think what I meant was, I wasn't making a distinction between "having a life" and "helping out the world". Both are lives. It's like you telling me either you can stay where you are, 9-5 job/2.3kids/picket-fence or you can work for whatever world organisation, travel and save lives while you're at it. So I did not express myself properly.

But I do agree with what you just said. It did feel like they were having a bit too much fun. That is to say, they were probably a bit too wrapped up in each other to maybe go straight to the "doing good" stuff. And I'd say he got a pretty good punch with Rose being torn from him, although I doubt we'll see more breaking down than the emo tears. I think it's the nature of the character (or at the very least Ten) to internalise his real emotions a lot, which is why he's so mercurial (as in, internalise, internalise then go Vinny Jones on your ass). From that to say that he'll learn one day, hum, who (*snorts*) knows. Maybe that was the whole point of taking Rose away, and they'll have him change after that. Mind you, I do think that part of his hubris as you call it, is also a defence mechanism, something to hide behind.

OMG somebody in this building has a ringtone just like the one in 24's CTU, that was ood

(And I'm not doing you a whatever, I'm just having a Captain Jack drool fest ;-)

[fan-elune.livejournal.com]

Hee! The lovely arse is more than enough to derail a fucking train, let alone a few thoughts.

No, I hear you, but there's a middle ground. She's not exactly going for a 9-5 job, is she? She's still going to do good, at Torchwood. Know what I mean?

Yeah, I don't think he'll break down any more than the tear, which was dear RTD sososo lovely. Very beautiful moment. And yes, the internalising is exactly what he does, even more so than Nine did. Nine was much more in touch with his emotions, which is why Nine came off as neurotic, and Ten comes off as near psychotic the mercurialism is so strong. We'll see how they do next season. You know you love someone well when you can criticise them, right? I love Russell. *grins*

Heee! Now that's what I want for my ringtone.

(I'm all for drooling. *drools*)

[cerulean-blu.livejournal.com]

Hee! The lovely arse is more than enough to derail a fucking train, let alone a few thoughts. *sporfle* oooh the coffee only just missed the keyboard. Thanks. *g*

Yes, yes, yes, middle ground! I think the argument's not whether she should or not stay with the Doctor, but rather whether she would stay with him for the right reasons (as in, loving him vs the greater good). And I don't think that, even if she's known she could save the world via Torchwood, she'd have chosen that over having fun with the doctor (and his lovely arse), at least at first. Mind you, point me to a human who would go for the greater good rather than a selfish choice, especially in the heat of the moment. That's why hindsight is always 20/20.

Now that I'm done hurling cliches at you, you wanna come worship at my RTD altar when I'm done building it? I'll save you a spot at the front *bg*

Too right about Nine and Ten, too. *nods, nods*

[randomling]

Hmm - wanted to throw in a random comment here. Mostly that while the Doctor is flawed, very flawed, in different ways in different incarnations (Ten: too romantic to see the big picture; Five: too compassionate to make the hard choices; Six: too angry; Nine: too guilty; Seven: too absorbed in the big picture to read the human consequences of what he was doing; etc), he also is the higher authority in so many ways. Before the Time Lords were gone, he had the wisdom he got from his people and the compassion he got from his human friends, and he used them both. Now he's the last Time Lord, the last of a race whose job it was to regulate the universe, and he's trying to do single-handedly a duty once taken care of by a whole planet full of people. Because he's the only one left with the wisdom, knowledge and power to do it.

Then again I'm coming from a very different perspective from either of you - I grew up with the Doctor, he's my childhood (and adulthood!) hero, and he's just always had that authority. The power to do good and make the right choices. With a little help from his friends, maybe.

[fan-elune.livejournal.com]

Precisely. We all have that power. And to take upon himself the job that all of his people was doing is 1) part of what's crushing him because honestly, who can shoulder that kind of burden, 2) extremely arrogant. The reasoning doesn't hold. They were a whole race, I don't know how many individuals, all with their flaws and virtues and strong points, and he only is the one individual. And if he truly thinks that he can do it, then why not wonder: what happens when he is gone? If that really is his ambition, and it's a noble one, what he should be doing? Is educate others.

But, yeah, I'm coming at this, again, with a Whedonian perspective. Joss never hesitated to question Buffy's right to be the One, for instance. And when he didn't or made her too right, I was right there complaining, too. ...okay so maybe I do that a lot. But I do that with much love!

[randomling]

Yup, the Doctor's arrogant as all hell - always has been - it's usually justified, though, because basically he does know what he's doing. Yes, sometimes the burden is so heavy it crushes him and even his friends. But that's how it is.

And he does wonder and has wondered who will succeed him. He's tried several times to turn his companions into "little Doctors" - Ace, Leela, even Captain Jack to a certain extent, plus there are book companions he tried it with - but it never quite works. Because they're human, they don't have the Time Lord training or upbringing, and now they never can (years and years of academic schooling? Is a bit beyond what the Doctor can provide in the TARDIS...).

The Doctor may or may not have the right. But there's no one else. There just isn't. So what other choice has he got?

(Does that sound flame-y? It's not meant to, but it's late and I'm hot...)

[fan-elune.livejournal.com]

Heh, I know better than to think you'd flame me. Just because we disagree... besides, I'm always learning more about the Doctor with you, given how you have a whole different perspective on him!

[cerulean-blu.livejournal.com]

See, now, I'm all new to Doctor Who, but I did accept that right off the bat, that it was his legacy to be higher authority (despite his flaws). It's really nice to learn about other Doctors too, so thanks. I have so many questions about his past, sometimes, when I watch these eps.

[fan-elune.livejournal.com]

Heh! My hindsight is way not 20/20. :p But yes, yes. I'm not saying her decision wasn't human. And it's a decision that's very true to her, and I'd have minded it less last year. It's really the Ten-and-Rose dynamics, or attitude maybe, that's rubbed me the wrong way the whole of this season.

...does worship mean I can't question and criticise him? *sticks tongue out* You watched QaF yet?

[cerulean-blu.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, no, there'll be a schedule, plenty of room for the critising ;-)

Well, believe it or not, I've only seen the first ep so far (omg, teh smut x_x). My parents came over for my graduation last week and I got traumatised. And then got traumatised again this weekend, although in a good way. I'll get there.

[fan-elune.livejournal.com]

You make a good point there, about that being the Doctor, not hubris. As someone who's only seen a few old school stories, it's not something I really get. And, mostly, as a follower of Whedon, I see hubris, I want it to come back and bite him in the arse. Because I'm a Whedonite before being anything else, and Nine was not hubristic, Ten is, and I can't let that go.

Besides, we need a breakdown, damnit.

Now, as for Rose's exit. It's a good point, again, and yeah, PotW was just... PotW was Nine, this is Ten. It's like suddenly Russell decided to make this a show mainly for children, and accessorily for grown-ups, instead of mainly for grown-ups but still enjoyable for children. The morales turned into kids' morales. The plots, the characterisations, all of it is suddenly much more aimed at kids, I feel. And so did Rose's decision. It's the kid in us all that wants to make the decision to stay with the Doctor.

So in a way, the fact that it wasn't a choice that made her leave - well, yeah, I kinda like it. Because who actually wants to grow up? And I think there's more to the end than pure despair and horror, because she's working at Torchwood, because the way he reacted to that was very much the same way he'd reacted to seeing Sarah Jane again, and I don't know, I got the feel she'd get a life. (She just wouldn't hook up with Mickey again. For obvious Jake reasons. Yes I'm clinging to my OTP.)

The fact that the Doctor was the symbol for the destructive power of love, that doesn't bother me. Because he is. Once you've known him, how can you go back? See Sarah Jane, see Rose's future. They get a life, but they're never again the same. And if they grow enough they manage to say no when he comes back. And that's what love's all about, when it stops.

...I really, really miss Nine, though.

[littlegothsin.livejournal.com]

I did cry a bit, but mostly because I was sad to see her go, and that next season, they will be nobody from the first 2005 season left. I do agree on one point: the relationship between Nine (miss him a lot too) and Rose was more touching than the one between Ten and Rose. Maybe because we saw it happen, whereas with Ten it had happened already. I still want to hug Ten though. Am afraid of next season: will they manage to built new relationship between the Doctor and a new Companion without cheap-ing his relation with Rose ? Anyway. Torchwood, october ?

[fan-elune.livejournal.com]

I'm still hoping for a few Jack cameos. Pleasepleaseplease! I mean, yeah, okay, he has Torchwood, but we need to see Jack react to this new Doctor. (I also wish he'd say he fancied Nine better, because David's so much prettier than Chris and I'd love for Jack to not be all about the looks. Not with the Doctor anyway. ;) ) As for the new Companion, I suppose it's wait and see. Christmas Special!

[littlegothsin.livejournal.com]

I think it's more or less official now that he's doing cameos in season three. (just hope it's not the "I'm here but you don't know it", Thanksgiving Buffy type of cameos)
He has to fancy Nine better! He was his Doctor too. Except, you know, if he's mad at him for LETTING HIM BEHIND ON SATELITE FIVE.

[fan-elune.livejournal.com]

Well it used to be official that he'd be in S2, so I'm going to not expect anything ever from now on.

And well, yeah, there is that, but whether or not he's pissed at Nine he still remains his Doctor and there is no way he's going to pull a Rose and fall head over heels for Ten. I'd be so disappointed. I want for some people to not adore Ten kthx.